On Order 2.45–2.54
Latin text: Knöll, CSEL 63 (Latin text: Pius Knöll, ed., Sancti Aureli Augustini opera, sect. I, pars 3, CSEL 63 (Vienna: Tempsky; Leipzig: Freytag, 1922), digitized by Open Greek and Latin (csel-dev, University of Leipzig), CC BY-SA 4.0).English: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), public domain (CC0).
Chapter 2
2.45CSEL 63:178–179
Quod uero ex illis ad id, quod quaerimus, opus est, ne te quaeso, mater. haec uelut rerum inmensa quaedam silua deterreat. etenim quaedam de omnibus eligentur numero paucissima, tu potentissima, cognitione autem multis quidem ardua, tibi tamen, cuius ingenium cotidie mihi nouum est et cuius animum uel aetate uel admirabili temperantia remotissimum ab omnibus nugis et magna labe corporis emergentem in se multum surrexisse cognosco, tam erunt facilia quam difficilia tardissimis miserrimeque uiuentibus. si enim dicam te facile ad eum sermonem peruenturam, qui locutionis et linguae uitio careat, profecto mentiar. me enim ipsum, cui magna necessitas fuit ista perdiscere, adhuc in multis uerborum sonis Itali exagitant et a me uicissim, quod ad ipsum sonum attinet, reprehenduntur. aliud est enim esse arte, aliud gente securum. soloecismos autem quos dicimus fortasse quisque doctus diligenter attendens in oratione mea reperiet; non enim defuit, qui mihi nonnulla huius modi uitia ipsum Ciceronem fecisse peritissime persuasisset. barbarismorum autem genus nostris temporibus tale conpertum est. ut et ipsa eius oratio barbara uideatur, qua Roma seruata est. sed tu contemtis istis uel puerilibus rebus uel ad te non pertinentibus ita grammaticae paene diuinam uim naturamque cognosces, ut eius animam tenuisse, corpus disertis reliquisse uidearis.
"But do not, mother, I beg you, let this as it were immense forest of things frighten you away from what we need of them for what we are seeking. For certain things will be chosen from all of them, very few in number but very powerful, and, though hard for many to know, they will be as easy for you, whose talent is new to me every day, and whose mind, whether by age or by wonderful temperance most removed from all trifles and emerging from the great stain of the body, I know has risen high within itself, as they will be hard for the slowest and those who live most wretchedly. For if I said that you will easily attain to a speech free from faults of pronunciation and language, I would surely lie. For even I, who had great need to learn these things thoroughly, am still criticized by the Italians for many sounds of words, and they in turn are criticized by me as regards the sound itself. For it is one thing to be secure by art, another by birth. As for what we call solecisms, perhaps any learned man who pays careful attention will find them in my speech; for there was someone who very skillfully persuaded me that even Cicero himself committed some faults of this kind. And as for barbarisms, in our times a kind has been discovered such that even that speech of his by which Rome was saved seems barbarous. But you, despising these things, either childish or not pertaining to you, will so know the almost divine power and nature of grammar that you will seem to have held its soul and left its body to the eloquent."
Notes and citation
Summary: Augustine assures Monica that the few essential things needed from the disciplines will be easy for her, even though she lacks polished speech, and that she will grasp the soul of grammar and leave its body to the eloquent.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 2.45 (CSEL 63:178–179; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/2-45/#p-2-45). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
2.46CSEL 63:179
Hoc etiam de ceteris huius modi artibus dixerim, quas si penitus fortasse contemnis, admoneo te, quantum filius audeo quantumque permittis, ut fidem istam tuam, quam uenerandis mysteriis percepisti, firme cauteque custodias, deinde ut in hac uita atque moribus constanter uigilanterque permaneas. de rebus autem obscurissimis et tamen diuinis, quomodo deus et nihil mali faciat et sit omnipotens et tanta mala fiant et cui bono mundum fecerit, qui non erat indiguus, et utrum semper fuerit malum an tempore coeperit et, si semper fuit, utrum sub conditione dei fuerit et, si fuit, utrum etiam iste mundus semper fuerit, in quo illud malum diuino ordine domaretur — si autem hic mundus aliquando esse coepit, quomodo, antequam esset, potestate dei malum tenebatur et quid opus erat mundum fabricari, quo malum, quod iam dei potestas frenabat, ad poenas animarum includeretur? si autem fuit tempus, quo sub dei dominio malum non erat, quid subito accidit, quod per aeterna retro tempora non acciderat? in deo enim nouum extitisse consilium, ne dicam impium, ineptissimum est dicere. si autem inportunum fuisse et quasi improbum malum deo dicimus, quod nonnulli existimant, iam nemo doctus risum tenebit, nemo non suscensebit indoctus; quid enim potuit deo nocere mali nescio qua illa natura? si enim dicunt non potuisse, fabricandi mundi causa non erit; si potuisse dicunt, inexpiabile nefas est deum uiolabilem credere, nec ita saltem, ut uel uirtute prouiderit, ne sua substantia uiolaretur; namque animam poenas hic pendere fatentur, cum inter eius et dei substantiam nihil uelint omnino distare. si autem istum mundum non factum dicamus, impium est atque ingratum credere, ne illud sequatur, quod deus eum non fabricarit — ergo de his atque huius modi rebus aut ordine illo eruditionis aut nullo modo quicquam requirendum est.
"I would say this also of the other arts of this kind; and if you perhaps despise them entirely, I advise you, as far as I dare as your son and as far as you allow, to guard firmly and carefully that faith of yours which you received through the venerable mysteries, and then to remain constantly and watchfully in this life and these morals. As for the most obscure and yet divine matters: how God both does no evil and is almighty, and so many evils happen; for what good he made the world, since he was in need of nothing; and whether evil always existed or began in time; and, if it always existed, whether it was under God's control; and if it was, whether this world also always existed, in which that evil was tamed by divine order. If this world began to exist at some time, how was evil held by God's power before it existed, and what need was there for the world to be built, in which evil, which God's power was already restraining, should be shut up for the punishment of souls? If there was a time when evil was not under God's dominion, what suddenly happened that had not happened through eternal ages past? For to say that a new plan arose in God, not to say impious, is most foolish. But if we say that evil was troublesome and as it were wicked toward God, as some think, no learned man will keep from laughing and no unlearned man will fail to be angry; for what harm could that nature of evil, whatever it is, do to God? If they say it could not, there will be no reason for building the world; if they say it could, it is an inexpiable crime to believe that God can be violated, and not even in such a way that he provided by his power that his substance should not be violated; for they admit that the soul pays penalties here, while they want there to be no difference at all between its substance and God's. But if we say that this world was not made, it is impious and ungrateful to believe it, lest it follow that God did not build it. So about these and such matters nothing is to be inquired except by that order of learning, or not at all."
Notes and citation
Summary: Augustine advises Monica to keep the faith she received in the sacraments and lists the hard questions about God, evil, and creation, including the Manichaean view that evil harmed God and that the soul is of God's substance, which should be approached only through the order of learning.
- The view that evil was "troublesome" to God and that the soul is of the same substance as God is Manichaean; it is stated here as Augustine reports it.
Notes on the original text
- Digital text corrected (Dash joined to the words in the digital text.): domaretur-si → domaretur — si.
Topics: Heresy
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 2.46 (CSEL 63:179; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/2-45/#p-2-46). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
2.47CSEL 63:179–180
Et ne quisquam latissimum aliquid nos conplexos esse arbitretur, hoc dico planius atque breuius, ad istarum rerum cognitionem neminem adspirare debere sine illa quasi duplici scientia bonae disputationis potentiaeque numerorum. si quis etiam hoc plurimum putat, solos numeros optime nouerit aut solam dialecticam. si et hoc infinitum est, tantum perfecte sciat, quid sit unum in numeris quantumque ualeat nondum in illa summa lege summoque ordine rerum omnium, sed in his, quae cotidie passim sentimus atque agimus. excipit enim hanc eruditionem iam ipsa philosophiae disciplina et in ea nihil plus inueniet, quam quid sit unum, sed longe altius longeque diuinius. cuius duplex quaestio est, una de anima, altera de deo. prima efficit, ut nosmet ipsos nouerimus, altera, ut originem nostram. illa nobis dulcior, ista carior, illa nos dignos beata uita, beatos haec facit, prima est illa discentibus, ista iam doctis. hic est ordo studiorum sapientiae, per quem fit quisque idoneus ad intellegendum ordinem rerum, id est ad dinoscendos duos mundos et ipsum parentem uniuersitatis, cuius nulla scientia est in anima nisi scire, quomodo eum nesciat.
"And so that no one may think we have embraced something very wide, I say this more plainly and briefly: no one ought to aspire to the knowledge of these things without that twofold knowledge, as it were, of good disputation and of the power of numbers. If anyone thinks even this too much, let him know numbers alone very well, or dialectic alone. If even this is endless, let him know perfectly only what one is in numbers and how much it can do, not yet in that highest law and highest order of all things, but in the things we perceive and do everywhere every day. For philosophy itself takes up this learning, and in it he will find nothing more than what one is, but far more deeply and far more divinely. Its question is twofold, one about the soul, the other about God. The first makes us know ourselves, the other our origin. The former is sweeter to us, the latter dearer; the former makes us worthy of the happy life, the latter makes us happy; the first is for learners, the latter for the already learned. This is the order of the studies of wisdom, by which each becomes fit to understand the order of things, that is, to discern the two worlds and the very Father of the universe, of whom there is no knowledge in the soul except to know how it does not know him."
Notes and citation
Summary: Augustine says that one must know dialectic and number, or at least what the one is, before inquiring into these questions; philosophy then studies the soul and God, leading to knowledge of the two worlds and of the Father of all, known only by knowing how he is not known.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 2.47 (CSEL 63:179–180; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/2-45/#p-2-47). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
2.48CSEL 63:180–181
Hunc igitur ordinem tenens anima iam philosophiae tradita primo se ipsam inspicit et, cui iam illa eruditio persuasit aut suam aut se ipsam esse rationem, in ratione autem aut nihil esse melius et potentius numeris aut nihil aliud quam numerum esse rationem, ita secum loquetur: ego quodam meo motu interiore et occulto ea, quae discenda sunt, possum discernere uel conectere et haec uis mea ratio uocatur. quid autem discernendum est, nisi quod aut unum putatur et non est aut certe non tam unum est quam putatur? item cur quid conectendum est, nisi ut unum fiat, quantum potest? ergo et in discernendo et in conectendo unum uolo et unum amo, sed cum discerno, purgatum, cum conecto, integrum uolo. in illa parte uitantur aliena, in hac propria copulantur, ut unum aliquid perfectum fiat. lapis ut esset lapis, omnes eius partes omnisque natura in unum solidata est. quid arbor? nonne arbor non esset, si una non esset? quid membra cuiuslibet animantis ac uiscera et quidquid est eorum, e quibus constat? certe si unitatis patiantur diuortium, non erit animal. amici quid aliud quam unum esse conantur? et quanto magis unum, tanto magis amici sunt. populus una ciuitas est, cui est periculosa dissensio. quid est autem dissentire nisi non unum sentire? ex multis militibus fit unus exercitus. nonne quaeuis multitudo eo minus uincitur, quo magis in unum coit? unde ipsa coitio in unum cuneus nominatus est quasi couneus. quid amor omnis? nonne unum uult fieri cum eo, quod amat et, si ei contingat, unum cum eo fit? uoluptas ipsa non ob aliud delectat uehementius, nisi quod amantia sese corpora in unum coguntur. dolor unde perniciosus est? quia id, quod unum erat, dissicere nititur. ergo molestum et periculosum est unum fieri cum eo, quod separari potest.
"Keeping this order, then, the soul now given over to philosophy first looks into itself, and, having been persuaded by that learning that reason is either its own or itself, and that in reason either nothing is better and more powerful than numbers or reason is nothing but number, it will speak thus with itself: 'By a certain inner and hidden movement of mine I can distinguish or connect the things that are to be learned, and this power of mine is called reason. But what is to be distinguished, except what is thought to be one and is not, or certainly is not as much one as it is thought? Likewise, why is anything to be connected, except that it may become one as far as it can? So both in distinguishing and in connecting I want one and I love one; but when I distinguish, I want it purified, when I connect, whole. In the former, foreign things are avoided; in the latter, proper things are joined, so that something one and perfect may come to be. For a stone to be a stone, all its parts and its whole nature have been solidified into one. What of a tree? Would it not cease to be a tree if it were not one? What of the members and organs of any animal and whatever it consists of? Certainly if they suffer a divorce from unity, it will not be an animal. What do friends strive for but to be one? And the more one they are, the more friends they are. A people is one city, for which dissension is dangerous. And what is to dissent but not to think one thing? From many soldiers one army is made. Is not any multitude the less easily defeated the more it comes together into one? Hence the very coming together into one is called a wedge (cuneus), as if co-uneus. What of all love? Does it not want to become one with what it loves, and, if it succeeds, become one with it? Pleasure itself delights more vehemently for no other reason than that bodies loving each other are brought together into one. Why is pain harmful? Because it strives to tear apart what was one. So it is troublesome and dangerous to become one with what can be separated.'"
Notes and citation
Summary: The soul, studying itself, finds that reason in distinguishing and connecting always seeks the one, and that unity constitutes stones, trees, animals, friendships, cities, armies, and love.
- The derivation of cuneus from co-uneus is a fanciful etymology.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 2.48 (CSEL 63:180–181; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/2-45/#p-2-48). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
2.49CSEL 63:181–182
Ex multis rebus passim ante iacentibus, deinde in unam formam congregatis unam facio domum. melior ego, si quidem ego facio, illa fit, ideo melior, quia facio; non dubium est inde me esse meliorem, quam domus est. sed non inde sum melior hirundine aut apicula — nam et illa nidos adfabre struit et illa fauos — sed his melior, quia rationale animal sum. at si in ratis dimensionibus ratio est, numquidnam et aues quod fabricant, minus apte congruenterque dimensum est? immo numerosissimum est. non ergo numerosa faciendo sed numeros cognoscendo melior sum. quid ergo? illae nescientes operari numerosa poterant? poterant profecto. unde id docetur? ex eo, quod nos quoque certis dimensionibus linguam dentibus et palato adcommodamus, ut ex ore litterae ac uerba prorumpant, nec tamen cogitamus, cum loquimur, quo motu oris id facere debeamus. deinde quis bonus cantator, etiamsi musicae sit imperitus, non ipso sensu naturali et rhythmum et melos perceptum memoria custodiat in canendo, quo quid fieri numerosius potest? si nescit indoctus, sed tamen facit operante natura. quando autem melior et pecoribus praeponendus? quando nouit, quod faciat. nihil aliud me pecori praeponit, nisi quod rationale animal sum.
"'From many things lying about before, then gathered into one form, I make one house. I am better, since I make it and it is made; better precisely because I make it; there is no doubt that in this I am better than the house. But I am not in this better than a swallow or a little bee (for the one builds nests skillfully and the other honeycombs); I am better than these because I am a rational animal. But if reason lies in fixed measures, is what birds build less fittingly and harmoniously measured? On the contrary, it is most rhythmical. So I am better not by making rhythmical things but by knowing numbers. What then? Could they make rhythmical things without knowing? They certainly could. How is this taught? From the fact that we too fit our tongue to the teeth and palate by fixed measures so that letters and words break forth from the mouth, and yet when we speak we do not think by what movement of the mouth we must do it. Then, what good singer, even if unskilled in music, does not keep in memory while singing, by natural sense itself, the rhythm and melody he has perceived, than which what can be done more rhythmically? The unlearned man does not know it, yet he does it, nature working. When then is he better and to be ranked above cattle? When he knows what he does. Nothing ranks me above cattle except that I am a rational animal.'"
Notes and citation
Summary: The soul reflects that man surpasses birds and beasts not by making well-measured things, which they also do by nature, but by knowing the numbers involved.
Notes on the original text
- Digital text corrected (OCR misreading of me.): inde Ille esse meliorem → inde me esse meliorem.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 2.49 (CSEL 63:181–182; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/2-45/#p-2-49). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
2.50CSEL 63:182
Quomodo igitur inmortalis est ratio et ego simul et rationale et mortale quiddam definior? an ratio non est inmortalis? sed unum ad duo uel duo ad quattuor uerissima ratio est nec magis heri fuit ista ratio uera quam hodie nec magis cras aut post annum erit uera nec, si omnis iste mundus concidat, poterit ista ratio non esse. ista enim semper talis est, mundus autem iste nec heri habuit nec cras habebit, quod habet hodie, nec hodierno ipso die uel spatio unius horae eodem loco solem habuit; ita, cum in eo nihil manet, nihil uel paruo spatio temporis habet eodem modo. igitur si inmortalis est ratio et ego, quae ista omnia uel discerno uel conecto, ratio sum, illud, quo mortale appellor, non est meum; aut si anima non id est, quod ratio, et tamen ratione utor et per rationem melior sum, a deteriore ad melius, a mortali ad inmortale fugiendum est. haec et alia multa secum anima bene erudita loquitur atque agitat, quae persequi nolo, ne, cum ordinem uos docere cupio, modum excedam, qui pater est ordinis. gradatim enim se et ad mores uitamque optimam non iam sola fide sed certa ratione perducit. cui numerorum uim atque potentiam diligenter intuenti nimis indignum uidebitur et nimis flendum per suam scientiam uersum bene currere citharamque concinere et suam uitam seque ipsam, quae anima est, deuium iter sequi et dominante sibi libidine cum turpissimo se uitiorum strepitu dissonare.
"'How then is reason immortal, and I am at the same time defined as something rational and mortal? Or is reason not immortal? But one is to two as two is to four is a most true ratio; and this ratio was no more true yesterday than today, nor will it be more true tomorrow or a year from now; nor, if this whole world collapsed, could this ratio cease to be. For it is always such; but this world neither had yesterday nor will have tomorrow what it has today, nor even on this very day, or in the space of one hour, has it had the sun in the same place; so, since nothing in it remains, it has nothing in the same way even for a short space of time. So if reason is immortal, and I, who distinguish or connect all these things, am reason, that by which I am called mortal is not mine; or if the soul is not the same as reason, and yet I use reason and am better through reason, I must flee from the worse to the better, from the mortal to the immortal.' These and many other things the well-educated soul speaks and turns over with itself, which I do not want to pursue, lest, while I wish to teach you order, I exceed measure, which is the father of order. For step by step it leads itself to morals and the best life, no longer by faith alone but by sure reason. To one who carefully considers the force and power of numbers it will seem most unworthy and most lamentable that by its own knowledge a verse should run well and a cithara harmonize, while its own life and itself, which is the soul, follows a crooked road and, with lust ruling over it, is out of tune with the most shameful din of vices."
Notes and citation
Summary: The soul reasons that rational truths such as numerical ratios are eternal while the world changes, so that it should flee from the mortal to the immortal and bring its own life into harmony as it brings verse and music.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 2.50 (CSEL 63:182; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/2-45/#p-2-50). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
2.51CSEL 63:182–183
Cum autem se conposuerit et ordinarit atque concinnam pulchramque reddiderit, audebit iam deum uidere atque ipsum fontem, unde manat omne uerum, ipsumque patrem ueritatis. deus magne, qui erunt illi oculi, quam sani, quam decori, quam ualentes, quam constantes, quam sereni, quam beati! quid autem est illud, quod uident? quid quaeso, quid arbitremur, quid aestimemus, quid loquamur? cotidiana uerba occurrunt et sordidata sunt omnia uilissimis rebus. nihil amplius dicam nisi promitti nobis aspectum pulchritudinis, cuius imitatione pulchra, cuius conparatione foeda sunt cetera. hanc quisquis uiderit — uidebit autem, qui bene uiuit, bene orat, bene studet — quando eum mouebit, cur alius optans habere filios non habet, alius abundanter, exponat alius, oderit nascituros, diligat natos? quomodo non repugnet nihil futurum esse, quod non sit apud deum. ex quo necesse est ordine omnia fieri et tamen non frustra deum rogari? postremo quando istum uirum mouebunt aut ulla onera aut ulla pericula aut ulla fastidia aut ulla blandimenta fortunae? in hoc enim sensibili mundo uehementer considerandum est, quid sit tempus et locus, ut, quod delectat in parte siue loci siue temporis, intellegatur tamen multo esse melius totum, cuius illa pars est, et rursus, quod offendit in parte, perspicuum sit homini docto non ob aliud offendere, nisi quia non uidetur totum, cui pars illa mirabiliter congruit, in illo uero mundo intellegibili quamlibet partem tamquam totum pulchram esse atque perfectam. dicentur ista latius, si uestra studia siue memoratum istum a nobis siue alium fortasse breuiorem atque commodiorem, rectum tamen ordinem, ut hortor ac spero, tenere instituerint atque omnino nauiter constanterque tenuerint.
"But when it has composed and ordered itself and made itself harmonious and beautiful, it will dare to see God, the very source from which all truth flows, and the very Father of truth. Great God, what will those eyes be, how sound, how fair, how strong, how constant, how serene, how blessed! And what is it that they see? What, I ask, should we think, judge, say? Everyday words come to mind, and all are soiled by the meanest things. I will say nothing more than that we are promised the sight of a beauty by imitation of which other things are beautiful, by comparison with which they are ugly. Whoever has seen it (and he will see it who lives well, prays well, studies well), how will it trouble him why one who wishes to have children has none, another has them abundantly, another exposes them, hates them before they are born, loves them once born? How will it not conflict with him that nothing will be that is not with God, from which it follows necessarily that all things happen by order, and yet that God is not prayed to in vain? Finally, when will any burdens or dangers or disdains or flatteries of fortune move this man? For in this sensible world one must consider earnestly what time and place are, so that what delights in a part, whether of place or of time, may be understood to be much less good than the whole of which it is a part; and again, so that it may be clear to a learned man that what offends in a part offends for no other reason than that the whole is not seen, with which that part wonderfully harmonizes; while in that intelligible world any part is beautiful and perfect like the whole. These things will be said more fully if your studies resolve to keep, as I urge and hope, either the order we have described or another, perhaps shorter and more convenient, but still right order, and keep it altogether diligently and constantly."
Notes and citation
Summary: Augustine describes the soul's vision of God, the source and Father of truth and the beauty by which all else is beautiful, which frees it from trouble over the apparent disorders of life, seen as parts of a harmonious whole.
Topics: Eschatology, Prayer
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 2.51 (CSEL 63:182–183; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/2-45/#p-2-51). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
2.52CSEL 63:183–184
Quod ut nobis liceat, summa opera danda est optimis moribus; deus enim noster aliter nos exaudire non poterit, bene autem uiuentes facillime exaudiet. oremus ergo, non ut nobis diuitiae uel honores uel huius modi res fluxae atque nutantes et quouis resistente transeuntes, sed ut ea proueniant, quae nos bonos faciant ac beatos. quae uota ut deuotissime inpleantur, tibi maxime hoc negotium, mater, iniungimus, cuius precibus indubitanter credo atque confirmo mihi istam mentem deum dedisse, ut inueniendae ueritati nihil omnino praeponam, nihil aliud uelim, nihil cogitem, nihil amem, nec desino credere nos hoc tantum boni, quod te promerente concupiuimus, eadem te petente adepturos. iam uero te, Alypi, quid horter, quid moneam? qui propterea nimius non es, quia talia quantumuis amare fortasse semper parum, nimium uero numquam recte dici potest.
"That we may be allowed this, the greatest effort must be given to the best morals; for our God will not be able to hear us otherwise, but he will most easily hear those who live well. Let us pray, then, not that riches or honors or such fleeting and tottering things, which pass away at any resistance, may come to us, but those things that make us good and happy. That these prayers may be fulfilled most devoutly, we lay this task above all on you, mother, by whose prayers I believe and affirm without doubt that God gave me this mind, that I put nothing at all before finding the truth, want nothing else, think of nothing else, love nothing else; and I do not cease to believe that we shall obtain so great a good, which we have desired through your merit, by your asking too. Now, Alypius, what shall I urge or advise you? You are not excessive, because loving such things, however much, can perhaps always be rightly called too little, but never too much."
Notes and citation
Summary: Augustine urges good morals as the condition of being heard by God, asks Monica to pray for them, crediting her prayers with his love of truth, and praises Alypius.
Topics: Prayer
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 2.52 (CSEL 63:183–184; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/2-45/#p-2-52). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
2.53CSEL 63:184
Hic ille: Uere effecisti, inquit, ut memoriam doctissimorum ac magnorum uirorum, quae aliquando pro rerum magnitudine incredibilis uidebatur, et cotidiana consideratione et ista praesenti quae in te nobis est admiratione non solum dubiam non habeamus uerum etiam, si necesse sit, de illa iurare possimus. quid enim? nobis nonne illa uenerabilis ac prope diuina quae iure et habita est et probata Pythagorae disciplina abs te hodie nostris etiam paene oculis reserata est, cum et uitae regulas et scientiae non tam itinera quam ipsos campos ac liquida aequora et, quod illi uiro magnae uenerationi fuit, ipsa etiam sacraria ueritatis ubi essent, qualia essent, quales quaererent, et breuiter et ita plane significasti, ut, quamuis suspicemur et credamus tibi esse adhuc secretiora, tamen non absque inpudentia nos putemus, si amplius quicquam flagitandum arbitremur?
Here Alypius said: "You have truly brought it about that the memory of the most learned and great men, which sometimes seemed incredible because of the greatness of the things, we not only do not hold doubtful, through daily consideration and through this present admiration we have for you, but could even swear to it if necessary. For what? Has not that venerable and almost divine discipline of Pythagoras, which has rightly been both held and proved so, been opened today by you almost before our eyes, when you showed both the rules of life and not so much the paths of knowledge as its very fields and clear seas, and, what that man held in great veneration, the very sanctuaries of truth, where they are, what they are like, and what sort of men should seek them, so briefly and so plainly that, although we suspect and believe that you have still more secret things, we would think ourselves not without shamelessness if we thought anything more should be demanded?"
Notes and citation
Summary: Alypius compares Augustine's teaching to the venerable discipline of Pythagoras, which he says Augustine has laid open before them.
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 2.53 (CSEL 63:184; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/2-45/#p-2-53). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.
2.54CSEL 63:184–186
Accipio ista, inquam, libenter — neque enim me tam uerba tua, quae uera non sunt, quam uerus in uerbis animus delectat atque excitat - et bene, quod ei mittere statuimus has litteras, qui de nobis solet libenter multa mentiri. si qui autem alii fortasse legerint, neque hos metuo, ne tibi suscenseant. quis enim amantis errori in iudicando non beneuolentissime ignoscat? quod autem Pythagorae mentionem fecisti, nescio quo illo diuino ordine occulto tibi in mentem uenisse credo. res enim multum necessaria mihi prorsus exciderat, quam in illo uiro — si quid litteris memoriae mandatis credendum est; quamuis Uarroni quis non credat? - mirari et paene cotidianis, ut scis, ecferre laudibus soleo, quod regendae rei publicae disciplinam suis auditoribus ultimam tradebat iam doctis iam perfectis iam sapientibus iam beatis. tantos ibi enim fluctus uidebat, ut eis nollet committere nisi uirum, qui et in regendo paene diuine scopulos euitaret et, si omnia defecissent, ipse illis fluctibus quasi scopulus fieret. de solo enim sapiente uerissime dici potest: ille uelut, pelagi rupes immota resistit et cetera, quae luculentis in hanc sententiam uersibus dicta sunt. Hic finis disputationis factus est laetisque omnibus et multum sperantibus consessum dimisimus, cum iam nocturnum lumen fuisset inlatum.
"I accept this gladly," I said, "for it is not so much your words, which are not true, as the true mind in the words that delights and stirs me; and it is good that we have decided to send this writing to one who is accustomed gladly to tell many lies about us. And if others perhaps read it, I do not fear that they will be angry with you. For who would not most kindly pardon the error of one who loves when he judges? But as for your mention of Pythagoras, I believe it came into your mind by some hidden divine order. For a very necessary thing had completely slipped my mind, which I usually admire in that man (if anything committed to writing is to be believed; though who would not believe Varro?) and, as you know, praise almost daily: that he handed on the discipline of governing the state to his hearers last, when they were already learned, already perfect, already wise, already happy. For he saw such great waves there that he would not entrust them to anyone but a man who would both avoid the rocks in governing almost divinely and, if everything else failed, would himself become like a rock to those waves. For of the wise man alone can it be said most truly: 'He, like a rock of the sea, stands unmoved,' and the rest that has been said in splendid verses to this effect." Here the discussion came to an end, and, all being glad and full of hope, we dismissed the gathering, since the night lamp had already been brought in.
Notes and citation
Summary: Augustine adds Varro's report that Pythagoras taught the art of governing the state only to his most perfect pupils, applies Vergil's image of the rock unmoved by the sea to the wise man, and the dialogue ends.
- The line is Vergil, Aeneid 7.586. Varro's account of Pythagoras is from a lost work.
Extrabiblical texts: Virgil, Aen. 7.586 (Virgil; quotation); Varro (Varro; allusion)
Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ord. 2.54 (CSEL 63:184–186; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-ordine/2-45/#p-2-54). (abbreviation not yet checked)
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Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Knöll (CSEL 63, 1922); no public-domain English translation exists, so each batch was re-read against the Latin.