Letters 161.1–163.1

Latin text: Goldbacher, CSEL 34, 44, 57 (Latin text: Alois Goldbacher (CSEL 34, 44, 57, 1895–1911), digitized by Open Greek and Latin (csel-dev, University of Leipzig), CC BY-SA 4.0).English: Claude (claude-opus-5-5), public domain (CC0). Compare: Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, series 1, vol. 1 (1886).

Show

Chapter 161

161.1CSEL 44:507–508

Per Iobinum, qui ad possessionem Marcianensem missus fuerat, dudum unam quaestionem de ratione et deo missa epistula mea interrogaui; huius adhuc responsum non merui. sed quia epistulas sanctitatis tuae unam ad inlustrem uirum Italicam et alteram ad Italicam inlustrem in Christo feminam in manibus legentes habuimus, occurrit, quod in epistula de domini Iesu Christi dei nostri carnali in uirgine conceptione et ex ea natiuitate posuisti: Si ratio quaeritur, non erit mirabile; si exemplum poscitur, non erit singulare et uisum est posse de omni natiuitate et hominis uel cuiuslibet animantis uel seminis tale aliquid dici. si ratio enim eius quaeratur, non indagabitur et utique erit mirabile et, si exemplum poscatur, quia nihil tale sit in exemplis, erit singulare. neque enim qui conuentus uiri et feminae uel cuiuslibet conceptionis aliquando quod in secreto formatur, ratione poterit exponi; aut uero seminum ex terra nascentium primitus putrescentium, postea fructificantium ulla ratio inuenietur? non enim et hoc mirabile non est uermem unum sine ullo parente, si ad singularitatem aliquid requiratur, intra pomum uirgineo conceptu formatum perfectum inueniri, unde ad exemplum arbitror dictum: Ego uermis et non homo. de conceptionibus ergo siue coniunctorum siue singularium nescio quaenam possit ratio exhiberi. non ergo de conceptione uirginis tantum non redditur, sed de nulla quidem arbitror conceptione posse persolui rationem.

Through Jovinus, who had been sent to the Marcian estate, I asked some time ago, in a letter I sent, one question about reason and God; I have not yet been favored with a reply to it. But since we have had in our hands and read letters of your Holiness, one to the illustrious man Italicus and the other to Italica, an illustrious woman in Christ, what you set down in the letter about the fleshly conception of our Lord Jesus Christ, our God, in the virgin and his birth from her occurred to me: "If a reason is sought, it will not be wonderful; if an example is demanded, it will not be unique." And it seemed to me that something of the kind could be said of every birth, of a human being or of any animal or seed. For if its reason is sought, it will not be traced, and so it will certainly be wonderful; and if an example is demanded, since there is nothing like it among examples, it will be unique. For neither can what is formed in secret from the union of man and woman, or from any conception, ever be explained by reason; or will any reason be found for seeds born from the earth, which first rot and afterward bear fruit? For is it not wonderful too that a single worm without any parent, if something is sought for uniqueness, is found formed and complete within an apple by a virgin conception? Hence I think it was said by way of example: "I am a worm and no man." Of conceptions, then, whether of the joined or of the single, I do not know what reason can be given. It is not, then, only of the virgin's conception that no reason is given; but of no conception, I think, can a reason be fully rendered.

Ps 22:6 (21:7 Vulg.) (quotation, high confidence)

Notes and citation

Summary: Evodius questions Augustine's saying that the virgin birth would not be wonderful if a reason could be given nor unique if an example could be found, since no conception can be explained.

  • Letter of Evodius to Augustine. The saying is from Augustine, Ep. 137.8 (to Volusian); Evodius attributes it to letters to Italicus and Italica, which appears to be a confusion; uncertain. Scripture: Ps 22:6 (21:7 Vulgate).

Notes on the original text

  • Digital text corrected (stray mark in the digital text): ratione et -deo → ratione et deo.

Topics: Christology

Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ep. 161.1 (CSEL 44:507–508; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-epistulae/161-1/#p-161-1).

BibTeX · RIS (whole work; this passage's key: sophiascriptura-augustine-epistulae-161-1) · Report an error

Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Goldbacher (CSEL 34, 44, 57; 1895–1911); each batch compared afterwards with the public-domain translation of J. G. Cunningham in NPNF¹ 1 (1886) where it exists; letters it lacks or summarizes were re-read against the Latin.

161.2CSEL 44:508–509

Sed exemplum poscitur. ecce et de uento dicuntur equae et de cinere gallinae, de aqua anates et alia nonnulla animalia sine uirili semine fetus proprios edere. certe, si integrae non reddunt, tamen possunt inlibatae concipere. quo modo ergo ponitur: Si exemplum poscitur, non erit singulare, quando tot exempla procedunt? nasci etiam in corporibus non solum in femineis uerum etiam in uirorum intrinsecus dico quaedam animalia notum est omnibus. numquid et ibi semen facit conceptionem? ecce exempla, ecce miracula, de quibus ratio nullatenus redditur, aut, si ad hoc redditur, quia in uirgine homine nihil tale umquam contingit, tamen sunt exempla in aliis rerum naturis, quia nata et sine seminibus concipiuntur, ex quibus penitus ratio reddi nequaquam potest. potest tamen et in generatione aliquid tale inueniri, quod sic edat partus, ut integritas naturae non uioletur. soleo enim audire, quod aranea sine ulla uirili conceptione et partus corruptione illa omnia fila, ex quibus tenta texere solet, secundum naturae suae modum proferat mirabiliter et sibi tantum quasi singulari praestitum esse demonstret. ergo si et hoc quaeratur, non tantum mirabile est et exempla talia rerum dari nullatenus possunt? metuo enim, ne ob hoc ipsa praecesserint in exemplis, ut, qui non credidissent uirginem concipere posse, his exemplis conuincerentur esse quidem mirabile, sed tamen non erit singulare; nam omnia dei opera mirabilia, quia in sapientia facta sunt. si ergo hoc nobis obiciatur, quid respondebimus?

But an example is demanded. Behold, mares are said to bear their young from the wind, hens from ashes, ducks from water, and some other animals without male seed. Certainly, even if they do not give birth intact, they can conceive undefiled. How, then, is it stated, "If an example is demanded, it will not be unique," when so many examples come forward? It is known to everyone, too, that certain animals are born inside bodies, not only of females but also, I say, of males. Does seed cause conception there too? Behold examples, behold miracles, of which no reason is given at all; or, if it is replied to this that in a human virgin nothing of the kind ever happens, yet there are examples in other natures of things, that things born are conceived even without seeds, of which no reason at all can be given. Something of the kind can also be found in generation that brings forth offspring without violating the integrity of nature. For I often hear that the spider, without any male conception and without corruption in giving birth, wonderfully produces, according to the manner of its nature, all those threads from which it is accustomed to weave its webs, and shows that this is granted to it alone, as something unique. If this too is examined, then, is it not equally wonderful, and can no examples of such things be given? For I fear that these may have come first among examples for this very purpose, that those who had not believed that a virgin could conceive might be convinced by these examples that it is indeed wonderful, yet it will not be unique; for all God's works are wonderful, since they were made in wisdom. If this is objected to us, then, what shall we answer?

Ps 104:24 (103:24 Vulg.) (allusion, medium confidence)

Notes and citation

Summary: Evodius cites animals said to conceive without male seed, and the spider spinning its web, as possible examples that would make the virgin birth not unique.

  • The beliefs about mares conceiving from the wind and other animals are ancient natural lore (cf. Virgil, Georgics 3.271–275; Pliny), reported by Evodius. Scripture: Ps 104:24 (103:24 Vulgate).

Notes on the original text

  • Digital text corrected (stray period in the digital text): nonnulla animalia. sine uirili → nonnulla animalia sine uirili.

Topics: Christology

Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ep. 161.2 (CSEL 44:508–509; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-epistulae/161-1/#p-161-2).

BibTeX · RIS (whole work; this passage's key: sophiascriptura-augustine-epistulae-161-2) · Report an error

Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Goldbacher (CSEL 34, 44, 57; 1895–1911); each batch compared afterwards with the public-domain translation of J. G. Cunningham in NPNF¹ 1 (1886) where it exists; letters it lacks or summarizes were re-read against the Latin.

161.3CSEL 44:509–511

Illud etiam me urget uehementissime, quod sic potest dici de corporis ipsius domini clarificati substantia, quia et ipsa poterit uidere dei substantiam — aisti enim in epistula ad Italicam non posse et certum est —, ut, cum rationem reddere coeperimus, quia non potest, hoc nobis obiciatur, quia, si, quod in illa conceptione et natiuitate factum est, mirabile est et singulare, rationem quaeri nolunt nec exemplum, quia unico hoc praestitum est, ut, quem ad modum de eius conceptione et generatione ratio non redditur, sed in illo solo inuenitur singulare, sic de eius uisione ratio non reddatur nec exemplum requiratur, sed soli illi singulariter licere diuinitatis substantiam corpore uidere. sed respondebitur rationem posse reddi, quia corporea re incorpoream rem nequaquam cernere liceat; metuo, ne respondeatur, quia et conceptio illa ratione exponi et exemplis possit firmari. aut enim in hominibus ratio deficiet et exempla cessabunt et confirmabunt corpore suo unigenitum uidere posse deum aut, si ratio hinc reddita fuerit, consequetur rationem reddi posse ab aliquibus nimis sapientibus uiris et illius conceptionis et consequentis generationis. quid ergo talibus respondeatur, percontor. non enim certamina semino, sed, quem ad modum insidiosis respondeatur, interrogo. ego tamen sic credo uirginis conceptionem et partum, quo modo semper credidi, et corpore quoquo modo clarificato deum uideri non posse utcumque ratione collegi. obuiandum tamen censeo hominibus, qui aut seditiones ex quaestionibus solent excitare aut feruenti studio ad discendum euigilare. ora pro nobis. pax et caritas Christi sanctitatem tuam nostri memorem perficiat, domine sancte uenerabiliterque beatissime frater.

This too presses me most urgently: that the same can be said of the substance of the Lord's glorified body, that it too will be able to see the substance of God (for you said in the letter to Italica that it cannot, and that is certain); so that, when we begin to give the reason why it cannot, it may be objected to us: if what was done in that conception and birth is wonderful and unique, so that they will have neither a reason nor an example sought, since this was granted to him alone, then, just as no reason is given of his conception and generation but it is found unique in him alone, so no reason should be given of his vision, nor an example required, but to him alone it is uniquely permitted to see the substance of the divinity with the body. But it will be answered that a reason can be given, because by a bodily thing an incorporeal thing can by no means be seen; I fear lest it be answered that that conception too can be explained by reason and confirmed by examples. For either reason will fail in human beings and examples will cease, and they will affirm that the Only-begotten can see God with his body; or, if a reason has been given here, it will follow that a reason can be given by some exceedingly wise men also of that conception and the consequent birth. What, then, should be answered to such people, I ask. For I am not sowing disputes, but asking how to answer the insidious. I myself, however, believe in the virgin's conception and childbirth as I always have believed, and I have gathered by reason, in some fashion, that God cannot be seen by a body, however glorified. Yet I think we must be ready to meet people who either usually stir up dissensions from questions or keep awake with fervent zeal for learning. Pray for us. May the peace and love of Christ perfect your Holiness, mindful of us, holy lord and venerably most blessed brother.

Notes and citation

Summary: Evodius asks how to answer the objection that, if the virgin birth is beyond reason, so might Christ's glorified body be able to see God; he affirms his own faith in both doctrines.

  • Augustine's letter to Italica is Ep. 92 (God not seen with bodily eyes).

Notes on the original text

  • Digital text corrected (stray period in the digital text): ratio hinc reddita. fuerit → ratio hinc reddita fuerit.

Topics: Christology

Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ep. 161.3 (CSEL 44:509–511; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-epistulae/161-1/#p-161-3).

BibTeX · RIS (whole work; this passage's key: sophiascriptura-augustine-epistulae-161-3) · Report an error

Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Goldbacher (CSEL 34, 44, 57; 1895–1911); each batch compared afterwards with the public-domain translation of J. G. Cunningham in NPNF¹ 1 (1886) where it exists; letters it lacks or summarizes were re-read against the Latin.

Chapter 162

162.1CSEL 44:511–512

Multa quaeris ab homine multum occupato et, quod est grauius, ea putas praecipitari debere dictando, quae tam sunt difficilia, ut cum magna diligentia dictata uel scripta uix perduci possint ad intellectum etiam talium, qualis ipse es. huc accedit, quia non tu et tales tantum modo cogitandi estis lecturi esse, quod scripsimus, sed utique et illi, qui minus acuto minusque exercitato ingenio praediti eo tamen studio feruntur ad cognoscendas litteras nostras siue amico siue inimico animo, ut eis subtrahi omnino non possint. ista cogitanti cernis quanta cura in scribendo esse debeat praesertim de rebus ita magnis, ut in eis et magni laborent. si autem, cum aliquid in manibus habeo, praetermittendum est et differendum, ut ad ea potius respondeatur, quae superuenientia requiruntur, quid fiet, si etiam, ipsis dum respondetur, alia superuenerint? num placet, ut etiam his omissis illa suscipiantur et semper priora fiant, quae posteriora oboriuntur, eaque sola terminare contingat, quibus, cum scribuntur, non superuenerit aliquid, quod quaeratur? quod ut mihi accidat, difficillimum est; sed non opinor tibi hoc placere. non ergo debui alia interrumpere, cum tua superuenissent, sicut nec tua, si alia rursus inruerent. et tamen seruare hanc iustitiam non sinor; nam ecce ut tibi haec ipsa rescriberem, quibus id admonerem, intermisi, quae agebam, et animum meum ad hanc epistulam ab alia magna intentione detorsi.

You ask many things of a man much occupied, and, what is more serious, you think that things should be dashed off in dictation which are so difficult that, even when dictated or written with great care, they can scarcely be brought within the understanding even of people like yourself. Add to this that not only you and people like you must be considered as going to read what we have written, but also those endowed with a less sharp and less trained mind, who are nevertheless carried with such eagerness, whether friendly or hostile, to get to know our writings that they cannot be kept from them at all. When you think of this, you see how much care there must be in writing, especially about matters so great that even great minds labor over them. But if, when I have something in hand, it must be passed over and postponed in order to answer rather the things that come in and are asked, what will happen if, while these are being answered, still others come in? Do you want these too to be dropped and those taken up, so that whatever arises later always comes first, and I manage to finish only those things during the writing of which nothing new arrives to be asked? That this should happen to me is most difficult; but I do not think you would like that. I ought not, then, to have interrupted other things when your questions arrived, just as I ought not to interrupt yours if others rushed in again. And yet I am not allowed to keep this justice; for see, in order to write back to you these very things by which to remind you of this, I have interrupted what I was doing and turned my mind to this letter from another great undertaking.

Notes and citation

Summary: Augustine replies to Evodius that difficult questions cannot be answered hastily, since many readers will see his writings, and he cannot drop his current work for every new question.

  • Reply to Evodius's letters 160, 161, and 163 (ca. 414–415).

Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ep. 162.1 (CSEL 44:511–512; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-epistulae/161-1/#p-162-1).

BibTeX · RIS (whole work; this passage's key: sophiascriptura-augustine-epistulae-162-1) · Report an error

Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Goldbacher (CSEL 34, 44, 57; 1895–1911); each batch compared afterwards with the public-domain translation of J. G. Cunningham in NPNF¹ 1 (1886) where it exists; letters it lacks or summarizes were re-read against the Latin.

162.2CSEL 44:512–513

Facile autem fuit hanc excusationem, ut arbitror, non iniquam litteris inditam tibi remittere, respondere autem inquisitionibus tuis non ita facile est et puto in ipsis opusculis, quae me nunc intentissimum detinent, non defutura quaedam loca, ubi haec ipsa expediam, quae requiris, si dominus fauerit. iam etiam ex his quaestionibus, quas modo misisti, multa soluta sunt in eis libris, quos nondum edidi, siue de trinitate siue de genesi. quamquam et illa si relegas, quae tibi iam diu nota sunt uel, nisi fallor, fuerunt, quia ea fortasse oblitus es, quae te conferente mecum ac sermocinante conscripsi, siue de animae quantitate siue de libero arbitrio, inuenies, unde dissoluas etiam sine mea opera dubitationes tuas adhibito scilicet nonnullo labore cogitationis, ut his, quae ibi ad intellectum liquidum certumque perducta sunt, consequentia nectantur; habes etiam in libro de religione, quae si recoleres atque perspiceres, numquam tibi uideretur ratione cogi deum esse uel ratiocinando effici deum esse debere, quando quidem in ratione numerorum, quam certe in usu cotidiano habemus, si dicimus: Septem et tria decem esse debent, minus considerate loquimur; non enim decem esse debent, sed decem sunt. de quibus itaque rebus recte dicatur, quod esse debeant, siue iam sint siue ut sint, satis, quantum aestimo, disputauimus in eis libris, quos commemoraui. homo enim sapiens esse debet, si est, ut maneat, si nondum est, ut fiat; deus autem sapiens non esse debet, sed est.

It was easy, I think, to send you back this not unreasonable excuse set down in a letter; but to answer your inquiries is not so easy, and I think that in the very works which now hold me most intent there will be some places, if the Lord favors, where I shall settle the very things you ask. Already, too, of the questions you have just sent, many are solved in the books I have not yet published, whether on the Trinity or on Genesis. And if you reread those things which have long been known to you, or, unless I am mistaken, were known (for perhaps you have forgotten what I wrote while you were conferring and conversing with me, whether on the greatness of the soul or on free will), you will find there the means to resolve your doubts even without my help, applying some labor of thought, of course, so that consequences may be joined to the things that were brought there to clear and certain understanding. You have also, in the book on religion, things which, if you recalled and examined them, would never let it seem to you that God is compelled by reason to exist, or that by reasoning it is brought about that God must exist; since even in the reckoning of numbers, which we certainly use daily, if we say, "Seven and three must be ten," we speak inconsiderately; for they do not have to be ten, but are ten. Of what things it may rightly be said that they "must be," whether they already exist (so as to remain) or so that they may come to exist, we have discussed sufficiently, I think, in those books I have mentioned. For a man must be wise: if he is, so as to remain so; if he is not yet, so as to become so; but God does not have to be wise; he is wise.

Notes and citation

Summary: Augustine refers Evodius to his books on the Trinity, Genesis, the greatness of the soul, free will, and true religion, and corrects his notion that God "must" exist by reason: God simply is.

  • Works referred to: On the Trinity and The Literal Meaning of Genesis (not yet published), On the Greatness of the Soul and On Free Will (dialogues with Evodius), On True Religion.

Notes on the original text

  • Digital text corrected (OCR slip; stray period in the digital text; stray period inside a word): ipsis opusculis. quae → ipsis opusculis, quae; iam etiam ei his quaestionibus → iam etiam ex his quaestionibus; de libero arbitrio,. → de libero arbitrio,; ui.deretur → uideretur; recte dicatur. quod → recte dicatur, quod.

Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ep. 162.2 (CSEL 44:512–513; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-epistulae/161-1/#p-162-2).

BibTeX · RIS (whole work; this passage's key: sophiascriptura-augustine-epistulae-162-2) · Report an error

Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Goldbacher (CSEL 34, 44, 57; 1895–1911); each batch compared afterwards with the public-domain translation of J. G. Cunningham in NPNF¹ 1 (1886) where it exists; letters it lacks or summarizes were re-read against the Latin.

162.3CSEL 44:513–514

Illa quoque de uisis, quae tibi nuperrime scripsi et ea commemoras subtiliter dicta, sed maioribus te implicasse quaestionibus, recense etiam atque etiam et cogita diligentius: non pertranseat, sed habitet in eis consideratio tua et inde fortasse utcumque conicies, quo modo sit anima praesens uel absens. in eis quippe uisis demoratur in somnis, cum abest a sensu praesentiaque cernendi, quam praebet oculis uigilans; hanc autem ab oculis, hoc est tamquam a luminaribus corporis animae absentiam, quae fit cum dormimus, si uis maior augeat, ut totum, quod est, inde subtrahatur, mors est sicut ergo a cernendi sensu ad uisa somniorum non cum aliquo corpore abscedit, nisi forte illa, quae uidentur in somnis corporea nosque ipsos inter illa hac atque illac ferri ac referri cum aliquo corpore existimabimus, quod iam tibi arbitror non uideri, ita, si tota penitus subtrahatur atque absit, quod fit in morte, non secum putanda est auferre aliquod corpus ex corpore. nam si auferret, profecto etiam cum dormimus et abscedit ab oculis, in quantum eos relinquit, in tantum secum oculos auferret, quamlibet subtiliores, corporeos, quod non facit. uerum tamen aufert secum quosdam simillimos sed non corporeos, quibus uisa simillima cernit in somnis sed nec ipsa corporea.

As for what I wrote to you very recently about visions, which you say was subtly expressed but has entangled you in greater questions, go over it again and again and think about it more carefully; let your consideration not pass through it but dwell in it, and from there you may perhaps somehow conjecture how the soul is present or absent. For in those visions in sleep it lingers when it is absent from the sense and from the presence of seeing which, when awake, it provides to the eyes. If a greater force increases this absence of the soul from the eyes, that is, as it were from the lamps of the body, which happens when we sleep, so that the whole of what it is is withdrawn from there, that is death. Just as, then, from the sense of seeing to the visions of dreams it departs with no body (unless perhaps we think that the things seen in dreams are bodily and that we ourselves are carried this way and that among them with some body, which I think no longer seems so to you), so, if it is wholly withdrawn and absent, which happens in death, it is not to be thought that it carries some body with it out of the body. For if it did, then surely, even when we sleep and it withdraws from the eyes, insofar as it leaves them, it would carry away bodily eyes with it, however subtler, which it does not do. Yet it does carry with it certain eyes most like them, but not bodily, by which it sees in dreams visions most like bodies, but themselves not bodily either.

Notes and citation

Summary: As the soul in dreams sees without bodily eyes and without a body, so at death it departs from the body without taking any body with it.

  • Augustine refers to Ep. 159.

Notes on the original text

  • Digital text corrected (stray period in the digital text): uidentur in somnis. corporea → uidentur in somnis corporea.

Topics: Eschatology

Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ep. 162.3 (CSEL 44:513–514; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-epistulae/161-1/#p-162-3).

BibTeX · RIS (whole work; this passage's key: sophiascriptura-augustine-epistulae-162-3) · Report an error

Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Goldbacher (CSEL 34, 44, 57; 1895–1911); each batch compared afterwards with the public-domain translation of J. G. Cunningham in NPNF¹ 1 (1886) where it exists; letters it lacks or summarizes were re-read against the Latin.

162.4CSEL 44:514–515

Porro si aliquis concedat etiam uisa somniorum, quae similia corporibus apparent, non esse nisi corporea, uideatur sibi aliquid dicere. nec ista ingenii tarditas facile conuincitur; multorum quippe est etiam non mediocriter acutorum, quoniam parum adtendunt, quantum ualeant imagines corporum, quae fiunt in spiritu nec omnino sunt corpora. cum uero eas coguntur intueri, si recte aduerterint atque compererint non eas esse corporeas sed corporum simillimas, rationem tamen de his non continuo ualent reddere, quibus causis et quem ad modum fiant, qua denique natura sua subsistant uel in quo subiecto sint, utrum ita in animo fiant ut in membrana ex atramento litterae, ubi utraque substantia est et membrana scilicet et atramentum, an sicut sigillum in cera uel figura quaelibet, cui cera subiectum est, illa in subiecto, an utroque modo fiant ista in spiritu nostro aliquando sic aliquando autem sic.

Moreover, if someone grants that even the visions of dreams, which appear like bodies, are nothing but bodily, he may seem to himself to be saying something. Nor is this slowness of mind easily refuted; for it belongs to many people, even not moderately acute, because they pay too little attention to how much power there is in the images of bodies which are formed in the spirit and are not bodies at all. But when they are compelled to look at them, if they rightly notice and discover that they are not bodily but most like bodies, they are nevertheless not at once able to give an account of them: by what causes and in what way they come about, and by what nature they subsist or in what subject they are; whether they are formed in the mind as letters are formed in ink on parchment, where there are two substances, namely parchment and ink; or as a seal in wax or any shape whose subject is the wax, the shape being in the subject; or whether these things are formed in our spirit in both ways, sometimes in one way and sometimes in another.

Notes and citation

Summary: Many people fail to see that mental images of bodies are not bodies, and even those who see it cannot explain how such images exist in the mind.

Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ep. 162.4 (CSEL 44:514–515; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-epistulae/161-1/#p-162-4).

BibTeX · RIS (whole work; this passage's key: sophiascriptura-augustine-epistulae-162-4) · Report an error

Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Goldbacher (CSEL 34, 44, 57; 1895–1911); each batch compared afterwards with the public-domain translation of J. G. Cunningham in NPNF¹ 1 (1886) where it exists; letters it lacks or summarizes were re-read against the Latin.

162.5CSEL 44:515–516

Mouet enim non solum, ut cogitemus ea, quae absunt a sensibus corporis et in nostra reperiuntur memoria uel quae nos ipsi, ut libitum est, facimus, disponimus, augemus, minuimus, situ, habitu, motu, innumerabilibus qualitatibus formisque uariamus, qualia sunt fortassis etiam illa, quibus deludimur dormientes, quando non diuinitus admonemur, nisi quod haec uolentes agimus, illa praeter arbitrium patimur; non solum haec mouent, quae in animo de ipso animo fieri non absurde forte quis putat quamuis et hoc causis occultioribus, quibus agitur, ut istud potius quam illud in conspectu animi ueniat, sed etiam quod ait propheta: Et dixit mihi angelus, qui loquebatur in me — neque enim forinsecus uoces ad aures corporeas prophetae uenisse credendum est, cum dicit qui loquebatur in me, non ad me —, utrum uoces erant de spiritu factae corporalibus similes, quales agimus, cum apud nos taciti multa memoriter plerumque etiam cantando transcurrimus, sed tamen editae ab angelo, quas miris modis cernebat ab alio, quam ipse fuerat, sibi suggeri, et quod in euangelio scriptum est: Ecce angelus domini apparuit illi in somnis dicens, quo modo enim apparuerit uel corpus angelicum oculis clausis — Abrahae quippe uigilanti sic apparuerunt, ut eos etiam, cum pedes lauit, contrectando sentiret — uel spiritus spiritui dormientis specie aliqua simili corporis, sicut nos ipsi nobis uidemur tali figura etiam per loca moueri somniantes longe aliter quam membra in stratis iacentia.

For what perplexes us is not only that we think of things that are absent from the bodily senses and are found in our memory, or which we ourselves, as we please, make, arrange, enlarge, diminish, and vary in position, condition, motion, and innumerable qualities and forms, of which kind are perhaps also those by which we are deluded while sleeping, when we are not admonished by God, except that the former we do willingly, the latter we undergo apart from our choice; not only do these things perplex us, which someone might not unreasonably think are produced in the mind from the mind itself (though by more hidden causes by which it comes about that this rather than that comes before the mind's view); but also what the prophet says: "And the angel who spoke in me said to me" (for it is not to be believed that voices came from outside to the bodily ears of the prophet, when he says "who spoke in me," not "to me"): whether these were voices produced in the spirit similar to bodily ones, such as we produce when we silently run through many things from memory, often even singing, yet uttered by the angel, which the prophet in wonderful ways perceived were suggested to him by another than himself; and what is written in the gospel: "Behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying": for how did he appear, whether an angelic body to closed eyes (for to Abraham awake they so appeared that he could even feel them by touch when he washed their feet), or a spirit to the spirit of the sleeper in some form like a body, just as we ourselves seem to ourselves, when dreaming, to move through places in such a figure, quite otherwise than the members lying in our beds?

Zech 1:9 (quotation, high confidence) · Matt 1:20 (quotation, high confidence) · Gen 18:4 (allusion, high confidence)

Notes and citation

Summary: The workings of mental images are mysterious, especially in prophecy, where an angel "spoke in" the prophet, and in angelic appearances in dreams.

  • Scripture: Zech 1:9 (Old Latin "in me"); Matt 1:20; Gen 18:4.

Notes on the original text

  • Digital text corrected (stray period in the digital text): habitu, motu. innumerabilibus → habitu, motu, innumerabilibus.

Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ep. 162.5 (CSEL 44:515–516; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-epistulae/161-1/#p-162-5).

BibTeX · RIS (whole work; this passage's key: sophiascriptura-augustine-epistulae-162-5) · Report an error

Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Goldbacher (CSEL 34, 44, 57; 1895–1911); each batch compared afterwards with the public-domain translation of J. G. Cunningham in NPNF¹ 1 (1886) where it exists; letters it lacks or summarizes were re-read against the Latin.

162.6CSEL 44:516–517

Mouent haec et ideo mira sunt, quia occultiorem habent rationem, quam ut uideri uel reddi ab homine homini possit. nam istae causae sunt admirationis, cum uel ratio cuiusque rei latet uel eadem res usitata non est, quod aut singularis aut rara est. ex illa ergo causa latentis rationis ego dixi in epistula, quam te legisse commemoras, cum eis responderem, qui negant esse credendum, quod Christum uirgo pepererit, uirgo permanserit: Si ratio quaeritur, non erit mirabile; hoc enim dictum est, non quod ratione res careat, sed quod eos lateat, quibus hoc deus uoluit esse mirabile. ex alia uero admirationis causa, quae ideo est, quia insolitum aliquid occurrit, scriptum est de domino, quod miratus sit centurionis fidem; neque enim eum rei ullius ratio potuerit latere, sed admiratio pro laude posita est eius, cuius par in populo Hebraeo non apparuerat. unde ipsa admiratio satis exposita est, cum ait dominus: Amen dico uobis, non inueni tantam fidem in Israhel.

These things perplex us and are wonderful precisely because they have a reason too hidden to be seen or given by one human being to another. For these are the causes of wonder: either the reason of some thing is hidden, or the thing itself is not usual, because it is either unique or rare. From the first cause, then, the hidden reason, I said in the letter which you mention having read, when I was answering those who deny that it should be believed that a virgin bore Christ and remained a virgin: "If a reason is sought, it will not be wonderful"; for this was said not because the thing lacks a reason, but because the reason is hidden from those for whom God willed it to be wonderful. But from the other cause of wonder, which arises because something unusual occurs, it is written of the Lord that he marveled at the centurion's faith; for no reason of anything could be hidden from him, but the marveling was put as praise of a man whose equal had not appeared among the Hebrew people. Hence the marveling itself is sufficiently explained when the Lord says: "Amen I say to you, I have not found such faith in Israel."

Matt 8:10 (quotation, high confidence)

Notes and citation

Summary: Augustine explains that things are wonderful either because their reason is hidden, as with the virgin birth, or because they are unusual, as when Christ marveled at the centurion's faith.

  • Augustine refers to Ep. 137.8. Scripture: Matt 8:10.

Topics: Christology

Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ep. 162.6 (CSEL 44:516–517; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-epistulae/161-1/#p-162-6).

BibTeX · RIS (whole work; this passage's key: sophiascriptura-augustine-epistulae-162-6) · Report an error

Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Goldbacher (CSEL 34, 44, 57; 1895–1911); each batch compared afterwards with the public-domain translation of J. G. Cunningham in NPNF¹ 1 (1886) where it exists; letters it lacks or summarizes were re-read against the Latin.

162.7CSEL 44:517–518

Quod autem adieci in eadem epistula: (Si exemplum poscitur, non erit singulare), frustra tibi uisus es uelut exempla inuenisse de uermiculo, qui in pomo nascitur, et aranea, quae filum textrinae suae corpore uelut integro parit. dicuntur enim aliqua argute cuiusdam similitudinis gratia alia remotius alia congruentius, sed solus Christus natus est ex uirgine; unde iam intellegis, quantum aestimo, cur hoc esse dixerim sine exemplo. habent itaque omnia causas suas atque rationes rectas et inculpabiles, quae deus uel usitata uel inusitata operatur. sed hae causae atque rationes cum latent, miramur, quae fiunt, cum autem patent, consequenter ea uel conuenienter fieri dicimus nec mirandum esse, quia facta sunt, quae ratio exigebat ut fierent, aut, si miramur, non inopinata stupendo sed excellentia laudando miramur, quo genere admirationis centurio ille laudatus est. nec ideo est reprehendenda sententia, qua dictum est: Si ratio quaeritur, non erit mirabile, quoniam est aliud genus admirationis, etiam cum ratio manifesta est admiranti; neque enim propterea culpatur sententia, qua dictum est: Deus neminem temptat, quoniam est aliud genus temptationis, propter quod recte itidem dictum est: Temptat uos dominus deus uester.

As for what I added in the same letter, "If an example is demanded, it will not be unique," you vainly think you have found examples in the little worm that is born in an apple and the spider that brings forth the thread of its weaving from a body as it were intact. For some things are said cleverly for the sake of a certain likeness, some more remotely and some more fittingly; but Christ alone was born of a virgin; from which you now understand, I think, why I said this is without example. All things, then, that God works, whether usual or unusual, have their causes and reasons, right and blameless. But when these causes and reasons are hidden, we wonder at what is done; when they are plain, we say that the things are done consequently or fittingly, and that they are not to be wondered at, because what reason required to be done has been done; or, if we wonder, we wonder not by being astonished at the unexpected but by praising the excellent, the kind of wonder with which that centurion was praised. Nor is the statement, "If a reason is sought, it will not be wonderful," to be blamed on the ground that there is another kind of wonder, even when the reason is plain to the one who wonders; for neither is the statement "God tempts no one" blamed on the ground that there is another kind of temptation, on account of which it was likewise rightly said: "The Lord your God tests you."

Jas 1:13 (quotation, high confidence) · Deut 13:3 (quotation, high confidence)

Notes and citation

Summary: The worm and the spider are not true examples, for Christ alone was born of a virgin; and the two kinds of wonder are like the two senses of "temptation" in Scripture.

  • Scripture: Jas 1:13; Deut 13:3. Temptare covers both "tempt" and "test".

Notes on the original text

  • Digital text corrected (stray mark in the digital text; stray period in the digital text): *Si ratio → Si ratio; sed hae causae atque rationes cum latent, miramur. quae fiunt, → sed hae causae atque rationes cum latent, miramur, quae fiunt,.

Topics: Christology

Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ep. 162.7 (CSEL 44:517–518; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-epistulae/161-1/#p-162-7).

BibTeX · RIS (whole work; this passage's key: sophiascriptura-augustine-epistulae-162-7) · Report an error

Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Goldbacher (CSEL 34, 44, 57; 1895–1911); each batch compared afterwards with the public-domain translation of J. G. Cunningham in NPNF¹ 1 (1886) where it exists; letters it lacks or summarizes were re-read against the Latin.

162.8CSEL 44:518–519

Nec quisquam existimet ideo posse merito dici corporeis oculis a filio patrem uideri ac non potius sicut a patre filium, quia illi, qui hoc putant, cum in reddenda ratione defecerint, possunt et ipsi dicere: Si ratio quaeritur, non erit mirabile; hoc enim dictum est, non quia non est ratio, sed quia latet. illius autem non miraculi sed erroris demonstrare debet nullam esse rationem, quisquis id opinantes refellere adgreditur. sicut enim nulla ratio est, qua dei natura moriatur aut corrumpatur aut peccet, et, cum hoc deum non posse dicimus, non derogamus potestati eius, sed aeternitatem ueritatemque laudamus, ita cum dicimus non posse uideri oculis corporeis, non latet, sed patet ratio bene intellegentibus, qua perspicuum est deum corpus non esse nec aliquid oculis corporeis cerni posse, nisi quod alicuius interualli interpositione cernatur, id autem non nisi corpus esse eamque substantiam, quae minor sit in parte quam in toto, quod de deo credere nefas esse debet etiam his, qui hoc intellegere nondum ualent.

Nor should anyone think that it can therefore rightly be said that the Father is seen by the Son with bodily eyes, and not rather as the Son by the Father, on the ground that those who think so, when they fail to give a reason, can themselves also say: "If a reason is sought, it will not be wonderful"; for that was said not because there is no reason but because it is hidden. But whoever undertakes to refute those who hold this opinion ought to show that for this, not a miracle but an error, there is no reason at all. For just as there is no reason by which the nature of God could die, or be corrupted, or sin, and when we say that God cannot do this we do not detract from his power but praise his eternity and truth, so, when we say that he cannot be seen with bodily eyes, the reason is not hidden but plain to those who understand well; by it it is clear that God is not a body, and that nothing can be seen by bodily eyes except what is seen with some interval between, and that this can only be a body, a substance which is less in a part than in the whole; which it ought to be wicked to believe of God even for those who are not yet able to understand this.

Notes and citation

Summary: That God cannot be seen with bodily eyes, even Christ's, is not a hidden mystery but plain reason, since God is not a body.

Notes on the original text

  • Digital text corrected (stray period in the digital text): non latet. sed patet → non latet, sed patet.

Topics: Christology

Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ep. 162.8 (CSEL 44:518–519; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-epistulae/161-1/#p-162-8).

BibTeX · RIS (whole work; this passage's key: sophiascriptura-augustine-epistulae-162-8) · Report an error

Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Goldbacher (CSEL 34, 44, 57; 1895–1911); each batch compared afterwards with the public-domain translation of J. G. Cunningham in NPNF¹ 1 (1886) where it exists; letters it lacks or summarizes were re-read against the Latin.

162.9CSEL 44:519–520

Latet ratio diuersarum commutationum celeritatis ac tarditatis in motibus corporum et corporalium qualitatum. hinc est omnium uisibilium silua miraculorum. numquid tamen ideo latet esse corpora, habere nos corpus, nullum esse quantulumcumque corpusculum, quod non pro suo modo loci occupet spatium nec in eo, quod occupat, ubique sit totum, sed minus sit in parte quam in toto? haec quoniam non latent, his contexenda sunt consequentia, quod nunc facere nimis longum est, quibus ostendatur non rationem latere, sed rationem omnino nullam esse, qua credi debeat uel possit intellegi deum, qui ubique totus est nec per spatia locorum corporea mole diffunditur, in qua necesse habeat partibus maioribus minoribusque constare, cerni corporeis oculis posse. unde plura dicerem, si hoc in ista epistula suscepissem, in cuius longitudinem non sentiens progressus sum paene oblitus occupationum mearum, ita ut fortasse, quod non arbitrabar, attentioni tuae satis fecerim, qui potes paucis admonitus plura cogitare, quae competunt, sed non etiam eorum, in quorum manus non inaniter uenire ista possunt, si diligentius et copiosius disserantur. laborant autem homines in discendo, quando et breuia non ualent intellegere et prolixa non amant legere; laborant itidem in docendo, qui et pauca tardis et multa pigris frustra ingerunt. mitte et illius epistulae exemplum, quae apud nos aberrans non potuit inueniri. recte in domino ualeas et uigeas memor nostri.

The reason for the various changes of speed and slowness in the motions of bodies and of bodily qualities is hidden; hence comes the whole forest of visible miracles. Yet is it therefore hidden that bodies exist, that we have a body, that there is no tiny body, however small, which does not occupy a space of place in its measure, and is not whole everywhere in what it occupies, but is less in a part than in the whole? Since these things are not hidden, to them must be joined the consequences (which it would be too long to do now) by which it may be shown that it is not that the reason is hidden, but that there is no reason at all by which it should be believed, or could be understood, that God, who is whole everywhere and is not diffused through spaces of places by bodily mass, in which he would have to consist of greater and lesser parts, can be seen with bodily eyes. On this I would say more if I had undertaken it in this letter, into whose length I have advanced without noticing, almost forgetting my occupations, so that perhaps, contrary to what I thought, I have satisfied your attention, since you can think out many fitting things when reminded with few; but not that of those into whose hands these things may usefully come if they are discussed more carefully and fully. For people labor in learning when they cannot understand brief things and do not love to read long ones; and those labor likewise in teaching who vainly press a few things on the slow and many on the lazy. Send also a copy of that letter which went astray with us and could not be found. May you be well and flourish in the Lord, remembering us.

Notes and citation

Summary: Whatever is hidden about bodies, it is plain that bodies occupy space, so God, who is whole everywhere, cannot be seen with bodily eyes; Augustine asks for a copy of Evodius's lost letter.

Notes on the original text

  • Digital text corrected (OCR slip): coi-pusculum → corpusculum.

Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ep. 162.9 (CSEL 44:519–520; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-epistulae/161-1/#p-162-9).

BibTeX · RIS (whole work; this passage's key: sophiascriptura-augustine-epistulae-162-9) · Report an error

Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Goldbacher (CSEL 34, 44, 57; 1895–1911); each batch compared afterwards with the public-domain translation of J. G. Cunningham in NPNF¹ 1 (1886) where it exists; letters it lacks or summarizes were re-read against the Latin.

Chapter 163

163.1CSEL 44:520–521

Pridem quaestionem misi ad sanctitatem tuam unam de ratione et deo, puto per Iobinum, qui seruit ancillis dei, alteram de corpore saluatoris, de quo aestimatur, quod substantiam dei uideat; tertiam dico nunc: anima rationalis, quam saluator cum corpore adsumpsit, utrum ex una de opinionibus est illis, quae proponuntur, cum de animae origine quaeritur, si qua ibi potest ueritate fulciri, an, quamquam rationalis sit, non erit tamen ex his speciebus, quae de anima humana dicuntur? quartam interrogo: qui sunt illi spiritus, de quibus in epistula sua ponit Petrus testimonium de domino dicens: Mortificatus carne, uiuificatus spiritu, in quo et eis, qui in carcere erant, praedicauit spiritibus et cetera, hoc inserens, quod in inferno fuerunt et descendens Christus omnibus euangelizauit omnesque a tenebris et poenis per gratiam liberauit, ut a tempore resurrectionis domini iudicium expectetur exinanitis inferis? quid ergo in hac re sanctitati tuae uideatur, cupio nosse.

Some time ago I sent your Holiness one question about reason and God, I think through Jovinus, who serves the handmaids of God; another about the Savior's body, which is thought to see the substance of God. I now put a third: the rational soul which the Savior assumed with the body, does it come under one of those opinions which are proposed when the origin of the soul is inquired into, if any of them can be supported by truth there; or, although it is rational, will it not belong to those kinds which are spoken of concerning the human soul? I ask a fourth: who are those spirits of whom Peter in his letter gives testimony concerning the Lord, saying: "Put to death in the flesh, made alive in the spirit, in which he also preached to those spirits who were in prison," and the rest; implying that they were in hell, and that Christ, descending, preached the gospel to all and freed all from darkness and punishments by grace, so that from the time of the Lord's resurrection judgment is awaited, hell having been emptied? I desire to know what your Holiness thinks about this.

1 Pet 3:18 (quotation, high confidence) · 1 Pet 3:19 (quotation, high confidence)

Notes and citation

Summary: Evodius asks Augustine about the origin of Christ's human soul and about the spirits in prison to whom Christ preached according to 1 Peter 3.

  • Letter of Evodius to Augustine; Augustine answers the question on 1 Pet 3 in Ep. 164. Scripture: 1 Pet 3:18–19.

Topics: Christology, Eschatology

Cite (SBL): Augustine, Ep. 163.1 (CSEL 44:520–521; trans. Sophia Scriptura, https://sophiascriptura.com/fathers/augustine-epistulae/161-1/#p-163-1).

BibTeX · RIS (whole work; this passage's key: sophiascriptura-augustine-epistulae-163-1) · Report an error

Translation: Translated by Claude (Opus) from the Latin of Goldbacher (CSEL 34, 44, 57; 1895–1911); each batch compared afterwards with the public-domain translation of J. G. Cunningham in NPNF¹ 1 (1886) where it exists; letters it lacks or summarizes were re-read against the Latin.